Thanks gang

[CA$H]

To all who attended, and especially those that helped with set up and tear down - it was greatly appreciated. GS 2013 was a success!

[Big_Willie]

And thank you to you for running the event it was awesome!

[Twinlinked]

thanks a lot for running the tourney tristan

everyone looked like they were having a great time

A.

[Matt Varnish]

Yes thanks Tris for running it, and to everyone else for coming, and to the FdB guys for the prize support.

[RKelly]

Results?

[Mike_A]

Yes thanks for running it guys was great fun!


The thing about RoF 1 weapons not being able to assault was a bit annoying, but it comes up so rarely that I don't think it is really worth arguing about.

Thanks;
Mike

[Matt Varnish]

If it were ROF 1 teams can't assault then a lot more stuff can;t assault...

I think its more ROF 1 gun teams cant assault, and I thought they were manpacked so could.. I guess I'll have to check the rulebook. Something I never do, but should haha, since I never know the rules. At least I rememberd to use smoke on my mortars for once on those SturmTigers!

[Joyous_Oblivion]

If it were ROF 1 teams can't assault then a lot more stuff can;t assault...

I think its more ROF 1 gun teams cant assault, and I thought they were manpacked so could.. I guess I'll have to check the rulebook. Something I never do, but should haha, since I never know the rules. At least I rememberd to use smoke on my mortars for once on those SturmTigers!

I also remembered to smoke with my mortar halftracks! I missed the double smoke template though, going to see if I can squeeze the points in for the third mortar half track.

[Twinlinked]

ROF 1 bazookas can assault..

A.

[lothlann]

teams that shoot more then half of their rof in the shooting step are non assulting teams, unless they have a rule that allows them to shoot at full ROF.

In the section for shooting it says rifle teams have rof 1. because their rof is already 1 if a rifle team moves or is pinned down, it adds 1 to its score to hit insted.

This is a rule that allows a rifle team to shoot its full ROF at the cost of +1 to hit which applies to the 2nd part of the assult rules, it has a rule to allow it to move and shoot full rof. Anti-tank guns have the same rule as well as 1 shot tanks. I thinks its preaty obvious...

[CA$H]

ROF 1 bazookas can assault..

A.

Not if they have shot- they can be part of an assaulting platoon BUT they are NON-ASSAULTING TEAMS. It's in the rule book.

[Matt Varnish]

Twinlinked, the entire bone of contention was that suddenly Bazookas cannot assault if they fired that turn. Brought up by 2 German players 10 minutes before the tournament I wonder who got Best overall and Best general..... <conspiracy theory>

[lothlann]

Bazookas can move and fire. The rules for ROF 1 is they can move and shoot 1 shot (which is full rof) but suffer +1 to hit, that satifies the 2nd part of the assult rules that states: unless they have a rule that allows them to shoot at full ROF.

The rule for ROF 1 is they always shoot at full rof of 1.

The real question is panzerfaust, they can't move in the movement step and fire, so can you shoot and assult.

[Matt Varnish]

So my question is this.. are there any man portable AT guns that CAN shoot then assault? If not, I am struggling to figure out why you would ever shoot them. Assaulting with them seems 100% more optimal, unless you reckon the MG defensive fire will pin you I suppose. Maybe I am missing something, but tank assault 4 for every round of combat seems way better than shooting once at a crappy FP, then being a non assaulting team.

[Mike_A]

I think your right that when they say 'half ROF' they meant it to be a reference to the Moving ROF table in the shooting section which tells you how to half ROF in Flames of War terms. But the fact is that it doesn't explicitly say that and we have to go by what the rules actualy say not what we want them to say, they clearly changed the wording of this between version 2 and 3 so maybe this was an intentional change we have no way of knowing that.

I think bazookas are the only man portable AT weapon with ROF 1, panzershrecks are ROF 2 and I think all the anti-tank rifles are ROF 3 or are gun teams. Panzerfausts can't move and shoot period so I think it makes things pretty clear for them. It also effects rifle teams that want to shoot before assaulting as well.

The reason that you would almost always want to shoot them (especially if you can do that AND asault which was how it previously went) was that you had a very high chance to get a bail if you hit which will generally cut 4 dice of defensive fire against tanks which is huge. In my first game at the tournament I was facing 2 tigers with reroll hits, if I don't bail any I will most likely get pinned in defensive fire, if I bail 1 he can't pin me so big difference. But the bazooka is you best chance of killing them so it's a tough choice.

I was probably 1 of the most affected at the tournament since I had ~10 bazookas and a similar nuber of rifle/carbine teams. But I don't think this rule would have changed the result of my games so thats why it's annoying but not really worth arguing about to me. If anything it just highlights to me that I was over reliant on bazookas and should change things up regardless.


One thing I really found at this tournament was that the level of play has raelly increased lately and it's hard to get any easy victories anymore, nobody is making any big mistakes. So games tend to be allot more interesting.

Thanks;
Mike

[lothlann]

But it also then applies to rifle teams, like carbines, they cant shoot then assault. Same as tanks, isu-152/122, su152, IS-2 cant shoot at gun them then assault it.

Piats are rof 1, light mortars, bazookas, panzerfaust.

And panzerfaust says it can not shoot in the shooting phase if it moved in the movement phase, which has nothing to do with shooting and assulting. But if it is ROF 1 cant shoot and assult it falls under that category.

My argument would be that it states and has pictures of ROF 1 moving and firing at ROF 1 which shows it has the rule to move and shoot with full ROF.

In my mind it does make sense for ROF 1 not to assult if shooting, it just makes rifle teams really weak, you already know your not going to pin them from the 6 shots you take. And carbines were made as rifles in assault...

ps. There isn't a rule for smgs or assult to shoot with full ROF it simply says they move and shoot at ROF 3. Same as a rifle that moves and shoots at ROF 1.

[Matt Varnish]

Hmm, well I guess when I have time at home I will scour the FAQ and the forums and see what the consensus is. I think Mike, Marty (12 Zooks) and I were the ones impacted (I have 7 Zooks, the max I can take) by this, and it came up for me in one game. I usually assault tanks with my A/Rifle platoons after shooting to bail. I ended up not doing so this weekend because I knew I couldnt then jump in with my tank assault 4 guys. And before I hear the whole "Well, its to represent that it would be hard to fire, then reload as you charge a tank", consider if I assault tanks, and it goes 4 rounds of combat, thats 4 times my guys reloaded in one round!

Either way, I should just park my Free French as they are getting worse and worse with each new book that comes out.

[Mike_A]

Ouch must be even more of an issue for an ARP, at least my para guys / engineer as Tank Assault 3 so it's as much of a difference.

Sometimes it's good to switch up armies anyway, helps keep the game fresh. I am tempted to try a German tank force next time just to play some games against all the guys that generally play Allies, although may have to finish my Gurkhas for the next midwar event. I think they are strictly worse then paras thou but still might be fun.

Thanks;
Mike

[Diragi]

Seems like it came up on the BF forums ~6 months ago:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
British Para Assulting a Tiger

"I was watching a game tonight and a British Para platoon assaulted a Tiger tank but before the assaulting took place a PIAT team fired at the tank and failed, but then it assaulted the tank. My question being can the PIAT team fire then assault, as part as a special rule. If page number can be given in the rule book tanks. Sorry if this has bee asked before."

"yes it can, as long as it fired at it's moving rate (so add +1 to hit for a ROF 1 weapon moving and firing)"

"PIATs are a RoF 1 weapon, and so their moving RoF is 1 with a +1 to hit. As long as the Piat team shoots at the moving RoF (and penalty) it can assault.

Panzerfausts cannot shoot if they move, which also means that if they shoot they cannot move later in the turn. So, if a panzerfaust shoots, it cannot assault since it cannot make a charge into contact movement."


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Panzerfaust- shoot and then assault?

I disagree, to illustrate my logic I'll first set out the situation for a normal ROF 1 weapon such as a bazooka, as follows:
- a bazooka is a ROF 1 weapon.
- To be able to assault it needs to shoot at moving ROF.
- A ROF 1 weapon's moving ROF is 1 (at +1 to hit).
- Therefore, can it shoot (and then still assault)? Yes
- At what ROF? Its moving ROF being 1 (at +1 to hit).

Total dick move of them to bring it up 5 minutes before the tournament start (esp as we had been sitting around for a while just in case extra people were in line -- and in the end the TO had the final say). Esp as in every thread I've seen this pop up on the flamesofwar.com forum back the can shoot interpretation.

IMHO the moving RoF is usually half (the +1 to hit kind of simulates that) -- I would think it would be perfectly find to shoot the zooks at +1...

[lothlann]

page 91.

It has a chart of ROF and it says these are the half rates of weapons (in black and white). So if you had a fully armoured AA gun it with ROF 6 it could fire 3 shots and still assault. The chart says: ROF 1-3 = 1 ROF 4-5 = 2 ROF 6+ = 3. Half of ROF 1 is 1 it says it plain as day. Which makes sense half of 1 is 0.5 which is 1 when rounded since you can't make half shots then rof 3 would be 2 shots. Read that on the BF forums about carbines.

[Matt Varnish]

Mike A, check your PM's I sent you something

[CA$H]

So - at the end of the day, was the call I made wrong? if so - I'm sorry. I was kinda put on the spot.

[Joyous_Oblivion]

So - at the end of the day, was the call I made wrong? if so - I'm sorry. I was kinda put on the spot.

No worries Tristan, it wasn't really fair to you to be put on the spot like that. I was sure I'd read bazookas could shoot and assault but couldn't remember where so I let the comment go.

Still, the vets who argued they can't, should have read up more on them.

[Diragi]

So - at the end of the day, was the call I made wrong? if so - I'm sorry. I was kinda put on the spot.

-50 DKP for you!

[Mike_A]

Glad that we appear to have a consensus at least, now you just need to get the Pet guys to also accecpt and problem will be solved.

I think the guys made the right call in making the obvious call at the tournament just so we could move on and not spend an hour talking about it.
Thanks;
Mike

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